Matt Reynolds, Packaging World (00:05):
Hi, I am Matt Reynolds. I'm the Chief editor of Packaging World Magazine, and I'm here in Phoenix at the ISTA Trans Pack. That's ista, the International Safe Transit Association. So I'm here with Eric and Bill. Bill, Eric, why don't you introduce yourselves.
Bill Green, IBM (00:19):
Okay. Hey, I'm Bill Green. I am the immediate past chair of Vista. I'm rotating off this year. I did four years at the chairman of the ISTA Global Board. I also work at IBM for my day job as a distinguished engineer and chief technologist for our supply chain. So
Matt Reynolds, Packaging World (00:42):
You're on packaging on your day job? Yes, I'm
Bill Green, IBM (00:43):
On packaging in my day job.
Matt Reynolds, Packaging World (00:45):
Good. And Eric?
Eric Hiser, ISTA (00:46):
Yeah, Eric Hiser. And I'm on staff at ISTA. I work with our members in the industry to update and maintain the standards that get published that get used to verify performance of your packaging system and help ensure that you're reducing damages during transit.
Matt Reynolds, Packaging World (01:02):
Sure. And you might also recognize Eric, he's a frequent columnist in the packaging world for those of you who get the print edition. So I would like to have you back, so big picture before we start zooming in on some of the details that happened over these last three days. What are some big picture takeaways, biggest shifts that you're seeing in packaging distribution?
Eric Hiser, ISTA (01:21):
Yeah, do you want to lead us off, bill?
Bill Green, IBM (01:23):
Sure. So I think a lot of the biggest shifts that we are seeing in packaging is the explosion of e-commerce, but also now the age of AI and data where we're able to dig in better using these type of tools to get insights not only into how our packaging is received, but also what's happening around sustainability, what is happening with damage and these type of things to make sure to optimize our supply chains. Sure.
Matt Reynolds, Packaging World (01:54):
A lot of brands have a lot of competing goals. Almost feels like competing goals now. But you mentioned AI. So let's dive right into AI. You actually presented on a Agentic AI yesterday. So you see it applied in a lot of different ways. Workflows, consumer reviews is another one. What do these cases tell us about AI's place in package testing in the future?
Eric Hiser, ISTA (02:16):
Well, Bill, since you talked about AI, I hate to put you back on the spot again, but yeah, take us away on ai. I can fill in.
Bill Green, IBM (02:24):
So I mean, the ability for us to use all types of different tools of AI, generative, all types of generative AI as well as a Agentic and other types of tools now allow us to have a very, very good picture into what the consumer is thinking about our brand, about our packaging, about our methods of shipping. All of these things now are accessible to us without brute force and trying to read thousands of reviews, it now boils it down, gives you sentiment. It does a very, very good job with sentiment and you can train it to even better. So you can have very, very accurate information about how you can continue to grow your business through these type of tools.
Matt Reynolds, Packaging World (03:14):
Okay. Now you mentioned sentiment. We'll get to that in one second. Put a quick pin in it. You did a really good job yesterday of disambiguating to use a many-syllabled word between a agentic and the common chat bot in a very quick 10 seconds, 15 seconds. Can you let us know which is which? Because people say AI and they mean different things, right?
Bill Green, IBM (03:33):
So your chat bots that are looking like Gemini and like Chat GPT and these type of things, do a very, very good job with unstructured texts, unstructured data that they could take it, you can ask it to do a thing and it does one thing and it does it well in many cases. And you can train it to be a little bit better. Agentic AI is basically in the agents. When we look at the agents in AI, we're looking at something to orchestrate what they're doing and then the agents go and they're different parts of what you want. So agentic AI basically does an end-to-end solution. So if I need to create a tool that pulls data from here, scrapes the internet from that, pulls that from over here, puts it all together, it does it end to end. And in a lot of cases you can do security governance, you can do architecture, you can do all these things. Like with IBM Bob. So if we're able to do all these things, it really brings a lot of ability to folks that are not necessarily deep programmers and steeped in computer science to actually dream up things and put things together.
(04:56):
So it goes out and it's goal-oriented. I want to see what the end goal is and it's going to be an assistant that takes you all the way to that end goal. Okay.
Matt Reynolds, Packaging World (05:06):
Interesting One. Specific, do you have anything to add? Sorry.
Eric Hiser, ISTA (05:08):
No, no.
Matt Reynolds, Packaging World (05:10):
Well, I would like to hear from you about one specific presentation today. We might call 'em a probe into what's coming next. We've traditionally heard about package testing in the lab. We've heard about package testing in the field, but there's been this wealth of information about how a package is actually received by the consumer that might not have always been available, but AI is bringing that to the table. So this was a Michigan State presentation yesterday about scraping Amazon reviews that sometimes have photos of damaged packaging, this sort of thing. So going to be, is this type of technology going to be in the toolkit going forward for package testing?
Eric Hiser, ISTA (05:47):
Yeah, I definitely see it being very valuable. And in the toolkit, it's going to enable packaging designers to better establish criteria of success. So instead of assuming or guessing what your customer's going to think is okay. With traditional testing, at the end of a test, we put it in a real world exercise here. At the end of the test, you have a scratch, you have a dent, you have a ding, there's a discussion about is that going to be acceptable by the consumer? This program that MSU was talking about tells you right away what your customer tolerance for damage is on a sliding scale.
Matt Reynolds, Packaging World (06:25):
A scale.
Eric Hiser, ISTA (06:26):
And so you can make those decisions right away as you go through that design process and help further optimize your packaging. Now you know what success is. So I think it's going to be a really valuable tool.
Matt Reynolds, Packaging World (06:37):
Okay. A new tool in the toolbox. Alright. Shifting real quick. There is a large retailer that starts with a letter W out of Arkansas here yesterday. Interesting presentation all about automation and the increased use of automation. You can tell Walmart is probably ahead of the game as they are in a lot of things, but meanwhile, brand owners, their suppliers, CPGs, they're under a lot of pressure to lightweight packaging. They're under pressure to rightsize packaging. They don't want to be shipping air. EPR [Extended Producer Responsibility] is making some demands on them that they actually have to pay for the types of material and how much material they're using. A lot of different things, a lot of different pressures. Meanwhile, there's this whole new entirely, well, it's not entirely new, but a coming necessity to design packaging also for automation, not for human hands, but for automation. So what you heard from Jim Thomson from Walmart yesterday, how does that impact the brand owners and retailers and how they have to test and think about things like horizontal pressures as opposed to the vertical pressures, that sort of thing?
Eric Hiser, ISTA (07:41):
Yeah. Well, I think it just goes to the story of the supply chain is always evolving, right? Things are happening, packaging is confronted with different hazards and those hazards are part of that evolution. And automation is the new frontier of what packaging is seeing. And so that's a big part of what ISTA is trying to do is bring transparency to what happens once that package leaves your facility. And the automation stuff, as we're starting to learn from Jim and others, is presenting new challenges. Horizontal compression, especially at the full layer level,
Matt Reynolds, Packaging World (08:17):
Layer of a pallet
Eric Hiser, ISTA (08:18):
To depalletize, robot arms picking and moving and all these different things are putting stresses and strains on packaging that may have not been anticipated. So you see in perforations, burst and things like that. So yeah, it's a new hazard and sometimes these are kind of benign or lower intensity, but it's enough of a fatigue that then trickles over into a fullfledged damage later on. So you really need to know and stay on top of what these different hazards are as the supply chain evolves.
Matt Reynolds, Packaging World (08:53):
Like you said, evolves. Evolves is the right word, because you have packaging that is light-weighted to optimize for one thing. As a new factor comes in, then it's no longer optimized. Optimized is a balance. It's a trade-off between a lot of different factors. It might not be the lightest weight that it could be, but it's going to be as light of weight as it can possibly be and still withstand those compression pressures from horizontal compression. So a huge amount of calculus, somebody's going to have to come up with the algorithm that just figures it all out to put it all together. Okay. Shifting again from Walmart. Let's talk about the poll yesterday. At the end of the day, you did an audience poll. We won't get into the details clearly. Most of the audience was packaging engineers, which was really cool. That's our audience. They're people who are designing and testing packaging. What did you see in that poll that may have leapt out to you as either different or changing over the years? Anything new that's emerging?
Eric Hiser, ISTA (09:47):
Well, the benchmarking was something new that we've been doing at TransPack the last couple of years to really help everybody understand in kind of an anonymous way,
(09:57):
(09:57):
, what everyone's facing. Along the automation train of thought, I was surprised that several people were already considering it. Rodney Prater from SC Johnson shared how they're kind of approaching the automation question. It was different than what Jim was sharing about the depalletiztion and all that. It was more about label placements and that sort of compliance with automation. So it was interesting to hear people acknowledge automation, but that it was different than the new frontier that we're hearing from Walmart.
Matt Reynolds, Packaging World (10:35):
And when we hear about terms like Sunrise 2027, the types of labels and stuff that we're going to be using, where the sensors are going to be able to read them and where the sensors are placed. And there's again, there's going to be an algorithm that solves all of this or a single equation, but we don't have it yet, especially as things change. So
Eric Hiser, ISTA (10:53):
That's what stood out to me. I don't know about you, Bill. What
(10:55):
about you?
Bill Green, IBM (10:58):
I think the benchmarking of itself is great because it gives a global board a good snapshot. And we started doing this because it gave us some direction on what is important to our membership. In the end, driving benefits and value to our membership is what we're all about and what we obsess over on the board as well as a lot of the staff as well. We want to bring that this Forum allows us to get together and understand what's important. And at the same time, the thing that I noticed was the sustainability aspect and how much more pervasive it is and how much more it is becoming important because of global regulations. Because
Matt Reynolds, Packaging World (11:42):
PPWR,
Bill Green, IBM (11:43):
Because of customer expectations, all of these things and many brands and consumer brands are now leaning into sustainability as a selling point. And if you have a sustainable product that never makes it to the consumer, it is the opposite of sustainable. That first thing that you've got to do is protect that product. And if you don't do that and the customer's unhappy, not only do you take a hit and you lose that customer, but when you look at the sustainability aspect, it's returns, it's carbon footprint, all these different things that goes downhill. So you're doing the opposite.
Matt Reynolds, Packaging World (12:24):
So
Bill Green, IBM (12:24):
That's why I think just the blocking and tackling of testing, making sure you can make it through whatever distribution cycle you're trying to sell through. So it can be moving to SIOC (Ships in Own Container, SIPP/Ships in Product Packaging) type stuff. It can be deliveries from your local store, hand deliveries like Walmart plus it's hand delivered things. I mean, I love it. It's like I can order stuff from the grocery store and when I get home, it's there and I can cook dinner or my wife can or we can do things.
Eric Hiser, ISTA (12:56):
That connection between sustainability and damage is a really good one. I think I'd highlight for your audience too that ISTA just did a sustainability survey and we found that 30% of the respondents saw an increase in damage to their product as it related to sustainability initiatives.
Matt Reynolds, Packaging World (13:16):
Right
Eric Hiser, ISTA (13:16):
So it's trying to find that balance of all the different ways packaging designers are pulled and not lose sight of what we view as the primary goal.
Bill Green, IBM (13:28):
Right.
Eric Hiser, ISTA (13:29):
You're not sustainable if the product isn't getting to the consumer.
Bill Green, IBM (13:32):
Exactly. And many consumers don't understand that. They see plastic, they see other things like that that may actually be a sustainable type of solution because it uses less. It's a lower carbon footprint, lighter weight, it gets to the customer intact, it's lighter weight. And so it becomes difficult. So the innovation that materials folks are doing in packaging is very, very important. I think the work that packaging engineers do to ensure that their products get there are grossly undervalued in a lot of cases. You're taken for granted as a packaging engineer until something goes wrong, then you're the most important person in the world. Right.
Matt Reynolds, Packaging World (14:18):
We hear that a lot. And Eric, you and I spoke about it yesterday, it's one step forward, two steps back. The losses or the detriment to a return or leaker or something like that is so much greater than the thousands of units that shipped with maybe one gram less corrugated for that case.
(14:37):
Yeah, right, exactly.
(14:38):
So the one single loss, it really weighs heavily against huge volumes of successes.
Bill Green, IBM (14:45):
And that's where testing becomes important. That's where verification and testing, and I think if anything, doing the work, doing the tests, the blocking and tackling that in and of itself is sustainable. And that's some of the things that we've tried to push in our global sustainability board to try and look at or global sustainability committee to try and look at to see how do we message that? Because we view it as an incredibly important aspect of this. And unfortunately, many brand owners just don't have that expertise. And so that's where ISTA comes in to give people that expertise, to train people on that expertise to have them understand, "oh, it's not just the product on the shelf because the product on the shelf may actually go into a box and ship. Well, am I prepared for that?" Right? The days of going to the grocery store and getting things, and that's the only place you can do that, are over. That's the shift in the last several years
Eric Hiser, ISTA (15:57):
I would say. So yeah, the testing is for sure critical blocking and tackling, but ISTA has a responsibility to ensure that those tests are evolving. I mean, we heard from Paul Larson this morning at Amazon about the important partnership of Amazon and ISTA working together to bring that transparency of what's happening so they can design for that. But also, making sure that it's staying current, right? So the Amazon over box test was just updated to align with their journey through new pack formats. Now there's paper dunnage, and so the tests incorporates that. And so it's doing the testing, but making sure you're using the right tests and the tests are evolving with those supply chains so that designs are meeting the mark.
Bill Green, IBM (16:45):
Good. And this isn't just a North American or a US problem.
Matt Reynolds, Packaging World (16:49):
Correct.
Bill Green, IBM (16:50):
This is across the world. This revolution that's happening not only with AI, but also with these supply chains and supply chains became incredibly important and front-page news during COVID, because everything collapsed because of all the things that we had to do. With distancing and people not going out and staying at home and all these things where people got very used to having things delivered to them. So it exploded all of this. So the entire global supply chain has completely revamped itself. Consumer expectations have completely revamped themselves. And as these kids come up and get older and now become adults, their expectations are much different and their voice, they will voice their opinion. So you got to listen
Eric Hiser, ISTA (17:45):
Faster and with less everything.
Bill Green, IBM (17:47):
Yeah, less everything. And sometimes they're very realistic and make a lot of sense. Sometimes the expectations and the ability to deliver on those expectations cross one another. You as a brand owner have to find that sweet spot where you're delighting the customer, but also making sure that you are protecting your brand because it does not take much, and it does not take very many voices to give you a one star, to say that you're no longer going to be sold in this platform or those type of things. So it's really, really important that you pay attention and you understand your supply chain end to end, and you map out that supply chain, how are they being delivered? Why is this happening? And you have to look at the lowest common denominator in a lot of cases, whether it's the warehouse worker, whether it's a clamp truck, whether it's a forklift, whether it's the person walking up from their personal car, dropping it onto your porch and taking a little photo of it
Matt Reynolds, Packaging World (18:56):
To
Bill Green, IBM (18:56):
Make sure,
Matt Reynolds, Packaging World (18:57):
Sure. Well now we have actually metrics of those one stars as our Michigan State example from yesterday. We can quantify it and we can actually apply that as a test. So you mentioned COVID and supply chains. You've had a unique view over the last, what, four or five years as chair. If there's one thing that you said that you would say has changed the most between when you first took over and now as your today, this being your last ISTA Forum as chair, what's the one thing?
Bill Green, IBM (19:25):
The one thing that I think that has changed the most is the explosion of data and AI, to be honest. I may be a little biased, but I see that as something that is emerging. A close second would really be the explosion in home delivery and e-commerce for supply chains, especially for consumer products
Matt Reynolds, Packaging World (19:56):
And how that applies to packaging of consumer.
Bill Green, IBM (19:59):
And the importance of packaging has now gone from important to paramount. Paramount. It is the way that you convey your product to your customer. It is the way that they use your product. In many cases. It is the way that they get that first unboxing experience, which we see on YouTube videos all the time. It's a
Eric Hiser, ISTA (20:26):
One-to-one relationship. There's no second chance,
Bill Green, IBM (20:29):
Right?
Eric Hiser, ISTA (20:30):
No one in the back room going, don't put the dented can on the shelf. It's usually old analogy.
Bill Green, IBM (20:34):
Exactly.
Matt Reynolds, Packaging World (20:36):
There's no net underneath the trapeze.
(20:36):
Eric Hiser, ISTA (20:38):
You've got one try to get that product to the consumer, ensuring that it's going to get there is a critical part in why we're always
Bill Green, IBM (20:44):
Right. And we as packaging engineers need to try and put ourselves into the shoes of the consumer. These tools are going to help us do that. The sentiment analysis is going to help us do that because it is very easy to fall into the trap of this was good enough. I use the denic can because I know that the denic can is okay, because I'm a packaging guy. Well, I've had seven years of schooling to tell me that, right? That's not the same for your normal consumer who may not even know that there's a person who has a degree, who has a job in packaging. Many people are very surprised at what we do that this is an actual thing. "What do you make boxes?" "Well, part of it, yeah." But it's the testing, it's the product design. It's all these different things that people very much take for granted unless it fails or until they throw it away,
Matt Reynolds, Packaging World (21:42):
Right? Yeah. The end of life is the other thing.
Bill Green, IBM (21:44):
The end of life is the next key thing. The sustainability aspect that pulls into perception and these EPR regulations, which in many cases are very, very good or very, very well-intended, but don't look at the entire picture. And I
(22:06):
Think
(22:07):
We have to have those conversations with different folks to say, lawmakers, to say, look, let's look at what the unintended consequences are, what we're trying to do, because there is never a sustainable option when a product doesn't make it
Matt Reynolds, Packaging World (22:26):
Right. Good. That's it. The end of life for packaging is, and the return logistics are calculus that need to basically bookend a package where it's going and where it could be coming back to. We're running out of time. We've already taken too much of your time. We've got to get down soon and see what Google has to say. We are going to be interviewing Ken Leung before too long, so we don't know what he has to say. We'll find out soon enough. We want to leave you folks with both. One final message, 30 seconds or less. Brand owners CPGs, what do they need to know coming out of this ISTA TransPack these last couple of days?
Eric Hiser, ISTA (23:03):
So again, back to your earlier question about what was the new different thing? Everything old is new again. Right? The supply chain's evolving. You have to stay kind of connected and collaborate with your peers in the industry to understand what that evolution is and have that insights so you can fold it into your design and development process. So it's really critical to come to events like this, hear what's going on so that you can ensure that you are designing and holding your packaging to the appropriate intensities and severities and just the appropriate level of rigor needed to get to the customer so it can maintain that sustainable approach that most everyone's trying to take. Sure. Future proofing. So really just staying connected to everybody so that you're using the right tools.
Matt Reynolds, Packaging World (23:55):
Good. Well, thanks Eric, and thanks, bill, and thanks for your service for the last few years, and thanks to Ista for hosting me for the last couple of days, and this beautiful little suite that you've basically gifted me for the past couple of days. So again, Matt Reynolds with Packaging World Magazine. Hope you can keep up with our coverage. It'll be all over LinkedIn. It'll be in the print issue, which will be in May and online as well. So thanks everybody.
Eric Hiser, ISTA (24:18):
Thanks, Matt.
